Dear Members,
A discusiion about the lalkitab is going on in another groups '' ancient_indian_astrology". Here are my views shared with that group about the thought of Sh. Sreenadh Ji about this system of astrology. I have put this in our group also for the benefit of new students.
Regards
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Dear Sreenadh Ji,
You have given a first hand count of a mind of preliminary student of lalkitab system of astrology. I had the same queries and confusions when I started exploring this system. A lot of confusion was added by the then available books. But as I studied the original literature these confusions are going away slowly and slowly. I adding my views about this system concerning to your perceptions. These are in red color. Yours are in black
To review any system first one should understand that system. A woman takes 10 months to deliver a baby. So to learn and review this system I should spend at least 10 day - because I am starting from a blank slate; i.e. I knew almost nothing about this system.
It might be bit surprising, but it is usually easy to approach a system and learn more in less time, if you are NOT a student of that system. A student progresses linearly through the path guided by the teacher, but
"the seeker/searcher/researcher takes jumps! Rather than trying to understand the system sequentially, he tries to find answers to the doubts that arise in him as and when he encounters new concepts; he is more guided by his inner quest and logic in the path he takes - than by the book and tradition. My state when I tried to approach this system was also the same."
// I agree absolutely with your views. I had also jumped upon this system in the same way. Same queries gaps were initially presumed by me but slowly and slowly these are being wiped off. //
Some questions I got, some answers too; some gaps I found, many merits too. Some doubts got cleared some still hang in midair.
Lalkitab systems (here after LK) is different from most of the other off shoots of Oriental astrology due to many reasons. Some of the readily visible factors about this system to the public are that -
* Unlike the Sanskrit based other astro systems, Lalkitab is written in Urudu.
// The Author of the book is a from Punjab and at that time the official language was Urdu in addition to Hindi & Punjabi(This mixture in my opinion is called shahmukhi). But Mostly the people used to read Urdu. One of the main reasons for this book in this transcription is that the author did not know Sanskrit and he might have thought it to be the best way to express this system in the local language.//
* LK gives much importance to Remedies some of which at times seems illogical. It strongly argues that you can cure the ill effects caused by planets by doing x and y things.
// I feel all the system of astrology gives same importance to remedies and each system has it own way of prescribing medicine (remedy).I don't feel that astrology can survive only by giving importance to prediction. In my views, the prediction in public was not the integral part or motive of astrology. In Lalkitab 1952 a chapter "Farman No 4-Aalim ko ilam mein Shaq kya hai(What is the doubt in the minds of people about this system?) This chapter shows the state of mind of the author while writing this book.
The Author of the book even said that "jo khoob karke dekha aakhir khuda ki batein khuda hi jaane"
The crude translation may be "after going deep in to this, ultimately felt that The God knows Better about His deeds"
Regarding curing of ill effects of planets by doing X and y things, as I understand from so far from my studies, Lalkitab has its own set of rules and limitations. Not all the ill effects can be cured. In some conditions if an astrologer tries to alter the effect of a planet( Called Grah Phal nature of planet) in a particular position, he may also prone to ill effect of that planet. //
* An aura of mystery is present around lalkitab not only because of its name which means "Red Book", but also because of numerous other factors such as –
--- it is in Urudu which most of the hindi speakers are not much familiar with (the first hindi version of LK appeared only in 1952).
--- printed versions of this text was not available (hand written copies and photocopies of this book was getting circulated)
--- there was not one but many versions of the book getting circulated with the name lalkitab. (Pt. Rup chand Joshi published 5 books on lalkitab such as in 1939, 1940, 1941,1942 and finally in 1952; and in 1952 the hindi version of lalkitab came out with the name "Aruna samhita"; and numerous others wrote lalkitab related books with the very name 'lalkitab' itself. No wonder it caused much confusion)
// Some astrologers did transliterate the books in solo efforts. But these transliterations were done in a crude way. Last book of Lalkitab was published in 1952. It was not popular then. Hence I don't think that the first hindi book appeared in 1952. Hindi speakers beyond delhi may face problem in understanding the meaning of many words of the Lalkitab. But person having Punjab or erstwhile Punjab of Pakistan may not face much problem. In my opinion even the urdu speakers from Hindi belt of UP Bihar & MP may also face problem of understanding many words in lalkitab as these words are from the Punjabi dialact consisting of shahmukhi, Pothohari and other Punjabi area dailacts.
Hare Krishna Press from Chandigarh have translated and published all the five books in a crude manner. Though these books become one of the main contributors for making this system popular but these books have too much mistakes and errors, which also contributes to increase the mystery about these books. Now the Hindi transliteration of all the five editions which present true essenceof original Urdu books as transliteration is done line to line and page to page. These books have same lines and same pages as the original books have.SH.Beni Madhav Goswami ji has done Four edition(1939,1940,1942,1952) while Sh. Yog Raj Prabhakar ji have done one edition(1941- freely available for downloading). Now all the true transliterations are available, the students can be benefitted from them. The original urdu versions are also available on internet for reading online.//
--- it does not follow the systematic approach found in other traditional astrological books but instead presents things as if some revelation
//I was also of the opinion earlier. But once we go through all the books the system becomes familiar . The author has also suggested the method of reading in the books itself//
--- in none of the lalkitab versions the author was not mentioned (The 1939 version of the book mentioned the printer cum publishers name as "Giridhari lal Sharma" which many took as the name of the author then. Later only it came to light that Pt. Rup chandi Joshi is the real author of the book)
// Yes, The name of author is not mentioned in the book. But the persons who know Pt. Rup Chand Joshi Ji and others who contributed financially and by other means have also confirmed that Pt. Rup Chand Joshi Ji had written these books.//
--- Unlike other astro-systems it spoke a unique terminology and language and mentioned a remedy for almost everything.
// For the people like me of present generation may feel this terminology unique. But in the rural areas these terminology still exists. As we read the books it becomes clear that person or his generations has also to eat the fruits of trees which were sown by his ancestors. Some methods are given for getting the relief. We can exploit the results of planets having in doubtful conditions only. The astrologers are also experimenting with new remedial measures invented through this system.//
--- Even thought the text is in Urudu, LK mentions and speaks about the Hindu godes and not about gods of other cultures.
// You are right. We in the childhood were made to understand that Urdu is a language of Muslims. But as we grew and found that it is a common language. Slowly and steadily we understand that a book in Urdu script does not means that it does not belong to Hindus. Indians have adopted this language irrespective of their religion.//
No wonder that people felt it bit mysterious.
Stories began to circulate about Lalkitab such as –
-- it is Arabic astrology [since it is in Urudu]
-- it is a book written by Aruna the coach driver of God Sun [based on the name given to 1952 hindi version of lal kitab as "Aruna samhita" which was nothing but an effort to do literal transilation of the word 'lal kitab' in to Sanskrit, where Aruna means 'lal' (red) and Samhita was used to refer to 'kitab' (book)] The story improved to say that, Ravana took away the book to Lanka, the book then reached Arebia and was translated into Arabic and Persian languages. And then into Urudu and thus came into existence 'lalkitab' alias 'aruna samhita' that is known to as today.
// all above is myths circulated by many SCPs ( Self claimed Pundits) of astrology.//
Everything has a limit and every mystery should end once. The same was the case with such mysteries and stories as well. In modern times, in the seventies and after more and more people started learning LK system and good book about the same started to come out. Possibly one of the best among them is the book "Lal Kitab Astrology - Background and Exposition" by Pd. Krishan Ashant. But please note that the good authors on LK system is not limited to Krishan Ashant alone but many others too are there.
// Pt. Krishan Ashant is one of the great astrologers who brought this system to common public. Unfortunately as I understood from his books, He had not gone through the earlier editions of before 1952 edition. But his books overshadowed all the shortcomings as far as the keeping this system alive. in my view this book is good for the advanced learners, //
The researches by such scholars brought out many facts such as –
* Books on LK system were written by Pt. Rup Chand Joshi of Pharwala, Panjab.
* The story behind is that - a soldier from Himachal Pradesh (his name is unknown) working in Army as per the request of his officer presented his astro knowledge into some hand written books. The officer gave the copies to Pt.Rup Cahnd Joshi for review and study. Later when Pt.Rup Chand Joshi went to his native village in Pharwala he took the books along with, studied it, and later started publishing books on the same. He mentioned neither his name nor the name of the Javan who actually contributed this knowledge to him through that handwritten book anywhere. Surprisingly those notes also never got published and none really knows whether such notes existed or existing or not. However scholars like Krishan Ashant presents some witness accounts stating that some of the friends of Pt.Rup Cahnd Joshi actually saw those hand written notes. (Anyway it is not clear what amount of info comes from those notes and what amount from Pt. Rup Chand Joshi himself - and possibly that would never be get revealed as well, since Pt. Rup Chand is no more and none seems have traced any clue in this direction till date.)
// These stories are circulated in his book by Ashant Ji and revolves around one of the astrologer he claimed to be living in the same village where Pt. Rup Chand Joshi lived. Ironically Pt. Rup Chand ji became famous and he might become isolated. Is not the jealousy factor in this story. Anyhow this is not the purpose of the present mail, I will put details later on.
Some lines in the book has reference about an unknown force e.g. in 1941 book(third book) it was written that someone who had prompted him to publish that third edition'.The stanza is
"Do chhapey the hissey pehley, Ek yeh banwa gaya"
(Two parts were printed earlier, now this one was got made ?? by)//
* It got clarified that LK is a unique and versatile system, an off shoot of Oriental astrology, as practiced in the hilly places of Himachal pradesh, Utteranchal and some parts of Kashmir. (Anyway apart from this argument, not much info or proofs are available in this direction. No existing practitioner of the system, who follows this system without depending on the books of Pt. Rup Cahnd Joshi ever showed up.)
* The logic behind the remedies, the results to be told, the systematic approach to leaning all started coming into light.
And thus gradually improved the reputation of the lalkitab system, and more and more people started practicing it. It is advisable to the traditional indian astrologers who are trying to understand this system as well to first keep aside the confusing jungle of remedies and try to understand the conceptual core. Otherwise you would confused about the primarily petty looking jungle of remedies, which used by the local astrologers similar to ready reckoner without knowing the logic behind, making not only themselves but also the system itself a laughing stoke for the somewhat knowledgeable. The blame should go not to the LK system itself, but to the money minded astrologers who are not interested in learning this system systematically but only in making money.
Anyway, coming back to the history of astrology, thus it becomes clear that nothing much is known about the history of this system before AD. 1939 and it seems that even the mystical history of this system is struck with this year or a few years before which Pt. Rup Chand was in army. Thus the natural first quest that arises is to know at least a guess bit about the history and origin of this system before this period. Let us start from the basic info about the system. The following points should be noted –
* LK does not speaks anything about which Ayanamsa to use. Astrologers use what they prefer. Now a days most of them are using Lahari Ayanamsa.
* LK does clarify much about the dasa system to use, even though it propose a 35 year dasa cycle, similar to the 36 year cycle of Yogini dasa followed in Himachal Pradesh region. None knows correctly how to use this dasa system and LK does not say much about it. Some use it similar to Nasargika dasa (e.g. Pt.Krishan Ashant), and some use it similar to the Yogini or Vimsottari dass system based on the position of Moon in Nakshatra (e.g. Pt. Bhooshan Priya). There are many other methods too which many suggest, but the truth remains that none is even sure where (in which planet) to start the dasa sequence. (Thus it remains a controversial and un-clarified subject)
//In fact there is no terminology of dasha system in Lalkitab. Astrologers have devised their own dasha system from 35 sala Chakra. (35 year cycle of planets). There is also a mention of 36 Years Cycle.
But There is a system of Maha dasha but that is totally different from the vimshotri and other dasha systems.//
* LK proposes a Varsha phala table - but none is sure about the logic behind it or even whether it is based on solar return, lunar return or what ever.
//Yes till date I failed in all the attempts of decoding of this varshaphala table. //
* LK gives more importance to Houses than to signs, but it is not clear which house division system to use (equal or unequal; lagna at the beginning of the house or middle of the house etc). Similar to traditional indian astrology most of LK astrologers consider signs itself as houses, but even with my limited experiments this does not seem to work. Scholars like Pt. Bhooshan Priya considers lagna as the mid point of house and I think this is more logical and close to reality regarding the use of this system. LK is totally silent on this matter. The point is if not a proper house reckoning system is selected, giving too much importance to house does not make sense; and if sign as houses rule is accepted then in many cases the results told by traditional astrology would be in direct conflict with the results told by LK system. Considering all these Pt.Bhooshan Priya ji seems to be in right direction even though there are almost none who follows that style. Pt. Krishan Ashant too does not address this point in his book.
// No system of house division is followed in the lalkitab. LK has clarified that signs and nakshatras are to be forgotten for this system. Actually this book is based on palmistry.This may be one of the reasons the readers find it difficult to understand as mostly terminology is palmistry based not astrology based.
Horoscope is supposed to be made on the basis of lines, signs on the palms. But the author has advised students that till perfection they should follow traditional horoscope making on the basis of Birth time. It is further advised to correct the horoscope on the basis of factual studies and events(These factual positions can be Palmistry lines, Samudrik, Kyafa(Body actions types & Signs) before using this horoscope for interpretation. . //
* The Planetary sequence followed by LK is unique. Unlike other sytems, in almost in every situation the sequence it refers to is : Ju-Su-Mo-Ve-Ma-Me-Sa-Ra-Ke
Does any of the above points give us any clue regarding the origin and history of this system? Even if they don't, I think they can. I would like to present two major points -
1) If proper house division is essential for the results told by Lalkitab to become correct, then it means that this system came into existence AFTER the period of Sripati (1019-1066) of 11th century AD, who proposed a house system possibly for the first time in India where sign is not equal to the house. (In traditional Indian Astrology before the period of Sripati, Sign = House, without exception).
//In my opinion this system is much older as there is very negligible part of mathematics is used.//
2) The Planetary sequence followed by an astrological system is usually a good pointer towards its place of origin. For example –
| Sl | Planetary Sequence | Place of origin |
| 1 | Su-Mo-Ju-Ve-Me-Sa-Ma | Uruk, Babylonia, Parthian, Selucid |
| 2 | Mo-Su-Ju-Ve-Sa-Me-Ma | Chaldean (Neo-babylonian) |
| 3 | Su-Mo-Ma-Me-Ju-Ve-Sa | Indian |
| 4 | Su-Mo-Sa-Ju-Ma-Ve-Me | Greek |
And now we are stuck with this new sequence proposed by LK. That is –
Ju-Su-Mo-Ve-Ma-Me-Sa-Ra-Ke
Unlike the above seqences which starts with Sun or Moon the LK sequence starts with Jupiter! Is that a mistake? If we, re-arrange and put Ju at the end then too the sequence stand out as unique, not only because it includes Rahu and Ketu as well but also because the sequence does not have much of a similarity with none of the above sequences! Thus it seems that LK system has an identity of its own, and possibly an astronomical and astrological tradition of its own which can be traced possibly to the ancient kingdoms in the hilly regions of himalaya itself or may be (it is just a wild guess) to some countries and cultures that existed just beyond himalaya like the Kamboja kingdom or so. As of now I am unable to prove anything about its place or origin based on the planetary sequence followed by LK, but definitely it could be a worthy clue if clubbed with further evidences.
// In my presumption it may be related with palmistry. The first mount belongs to Jupiter. The crude way to justify the sequence is take two mounts owners from top of the palm Ju – Su, Take Two female owners from the bottom of palm- Mo-Ve, Owner of Two mounts of Middle of palm- Mars, Take remaining four of Mukhannas Plates (Eunuch term is used in English But not an appropriate term) i.e Two Mount from the top whose owners are Mukhannas Planets – Me-Sa and two from bottom part outside the palm area Ra-Ke( Rahu and ketu have not given any space in Palm) though they have forcible taken the house no 6-12 on palm//
I am still trying to learn and understand this system. In the coming days I will share more of my thoughts about this system so that we can proceed to a comparison and conclusion regarding its compatibility with AIA.
//Like you I still at learning stage of the system. It is a welcome step that the learned like you have now showing inclination towards this unique system. //
Regards,
Nirmal
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