[astrostudents] Re: Lalkitab Review - 8

 

Dear Nirmal,

Well spoken! Sreenadh hasn't cracked anything at all. Sreenadh should study Lal Kitab rather than try to reform something he doesn't understand.

Best regards,
Finn Wandahl

--- In astrostudents@yahoogroups.com, "Nirmal Kumar" <nirbhar@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Sreenadh Ji,
> Nothing new in your table. I and many like me had already worked on these sequences while alienating the results of planets given in lalkitab. But the sequence in table of lalkitab varshphal could not be justified. I am sorry you have also failed in your attempt. Since you have not read the original lakitab,hence you have prompted to declare the table in lalkitab as wrong. I can only say that the table you made is just an sequence of numbers which has nothing to do with Lalkitab.
> I beg pardon if my words appear harsher.
> Regards
> Nirmal
>
> --- In astrostudents@yahoogroups.com, Sreenadh OG <sreesog@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear All,
> >   One more review in line.
> > ==========================
> >
> >
> > Review â€" 8
> >
> > One more review in line â€" this time about Varshaphal table used in LK.
> >
> > // 8)      LK has its own Year result (Varshaphal;
> > based on transit/progression) system. (This point we will discuss in detail
> > later)//
> >
> > Earlier when I said â€" “LK proposes a Varsha phala
> > table - but none is sure about the logic behind it or even whether it is based
> > on solar return, lunar return or what ever.” ; Nirmal Bharadwaj ji
> > responded “Yes till date I failed in all the attempts of decoding of this
> > varshaphala table”; and I said certainly I will try my hand on this when we
> > take up this. And now this is the time for the same â€" a difficult task at hand!
> >
> >
> > Before venturing into analyzing
> > LK Varshaphal table you should know what it is and how it is used. Let me
> > explain it a bit. It is neither solar or lunar return chart, but a kind of
> > ready reconer that should be used for modifying the natal chart to suit the
> > results of a particular age/year.  The LK
> > Varshaphal table lists “age” of the native from 1 to 96 years in the left
> > column, and the top row title lists the house numbers. Within the table some
> > house numbers are listed. The astrologer based on this table, the astrologer is
> > supposed to “move” the planets in the native’s natal chart to the corresponding
> > houses listed in the table, and based on the same predict the events for the
> > native for the said year. For sample beginning portion of this table is given
> > below â€"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Age1
> >
> >
> > 1H
> >
> >
> > 2H
> >
> >
> > 3H
> >
> >
> > 4H
> >
> >
> > 5H
> >
> >
> > 6H
> >
> >
> > 7H
> >
> >
> > 8H
> >
> >
> > 9H
> >
> >
> > 10H
> >
> >
> > 11H
> >
> >
> > 12H
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Let me explain a bit further with
> > an example. Think that I have a chart of a native for whom Sun is in lagna and
> > Moon is in 4th. In the Varshaphal chart for this native, for the age
> > of ten, where should I place these planets? I am supposed to check this table
> > to know the answer for the same. On the left most column I will look for the
> > age 10 (to help you all, I have highlighted this line in the above table in
> > bold). Since Sun is in lagna (1H), I look below 1H for age 10 and find the
> > value “10” there. This means that, in the Varshaphal chart I will have to mark
> > Sun in 10th house. Since in natal chart Moon is in 4th, I
> > look below 4H for age 10 and find value “7” there. This means that, in the
> > Varshaphal chart I will have to mark Moon in 7th house. In the same
> > way I am supposed to mark/move all planets in the natal chart to the
> > corresponding houses in Varshaphal chart as per the guidance given by this
> > table. Thus Varshaphal chart gets prepared and now based on that the astrologer
> > is supposed to predict the events for that year for the native.  This seems to be unique and interesting
> > methodology!
> >
> > But what is the logic behind this
> > method and how this table got prepared? No one seems to have any answer to this
> > question. Further it seems that the table does not follow any fixed pattern
> > even on closer look â€" one more mystery as in many cases with LK! Mysteries and
> > puzzles are interesting which prompts us to solve them; and no wonder I too
> > started putting my effort to solve this puzzle. My efforts can be described in
> > the following lines â€"
> >
> > 1)     
> > I stated with looking for a pattern vertically and
> > horizontally without success without finding much.
> >
> > 2)     
> > Then I thought if there is an inherent pattern, at
> > least a broken one that would get reflected at least in some of the diagonal
> > values and I found that the table really seems to be following some pattern.
> >
> > 3)     
> > On further scrutiny I found that the 96 lines can be
> > broken down into sets of 12 lines each â€" thus providing a total set of 12 x 8
> > lines. The fist column of all these sets repeated exactly like the previous
> > one; but the remaining do not seems to make much sense.
> >
> > 4)     
> > I entered the whole values in to an excel sheet and
> > after some sorting and filtering identified that there is consistent pattern
> > followed especially evident from the fact that all the 12 sets repeated many
> > values in exactly the same place, but there seemed to be many errors in the
> > lists as well. Thus I got the idea that I am dealing with an almost totally
> > corrupted table, but I have eight sets to compare and contrast with each other
> > which originally was exactly identical! This was a good clue, and eight samples
> > is a good enough collection to compare and contrast and churn out of the
> > correct table.
> >
> > 5)     
> > And thus I identified and filtered out the original
> > values by analyzing all these eight samples each set having 12 rows each.
> >
> > 6)     
> > I realized that the inherent correct subset table of 12
> > x 12 values, is really unique like a tantric numeric magic square, since no
> > value repeated more than once either in the horizontal or vertical line!
> > Further every vertical and horizontal lines contained all the values from 1 to
> > 12! Another interesting fact was that, whether I repeat these values vertically
> > or horizontally, I will get this unique table!
> >
> > It took me two
> > days to unlock this secret and crack the code behind this unique varshaphala
> > table, but I think it was a worthy effort. I realized that this is not a table
> > of 96 rows but instead simply a set of 12 rows repeating many times. The
> > corrected subset, the core keyset, is given below â€"
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Age
> >
> >
> > 1H
> >
> >
> > 2H
> >
> >
> > 3H
> >
> >
> > 4H
> >
> >
> > 5H
> >
> >
> > 6H
> >
> >
> > 7H
> >
> >
> > 8H
> >
> >
> > 9H
> >
> >
> > 10H
> >
> >
> > 11H
> >
> >
> > 12H
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 6
> >
> >
> > 8
> >
> >
> > 10
> >
> >
> > 12
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > 7
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > 11
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > After the age of twelve this
> > sequence/pattern will repeat again. This re-invents the original LK Varshaphala
> > table. I have attached the excel sheet with both the original table and the
> > corrected table along with.
> >
> > The fact that possibly due to
> > repeated copying this table got almost totally corrupted and also that
> > key/pattern behind was already lost helps us to realize many facts such as â€"
> >
> > 1)     
> > Almost certainly Rupchand Joshi ji is NOT the
> > originator/creator but only the one who PRESERVED this system. Because if he
> > was the originator/creator of this system there is never a chance that he would
> > include such a corrupted version of the Varshaphala table in his book, but the
> > correct one. Most possibly since he himself was not aware of the correct
> > sequence/secret behind this varshapahal table, it possibly indicates that this
> > system was taught to him by someone who himself handed over this table also to
> > him; in the manner he published it.
> >
> > 2)     
> > The uniqueness, the tantric numeric magic square
> > connection of this table possibly again prompts us to find its origin in
> > Himachal Pradesh rather than Panjab, as told by Krishan Ashant ji; because it
> > was there that a rich and unique tradition of ancient tantra existed away from
> > the common mass.
> >
> > 3)     
> > The table provides us with house sequences such as “1-4-9-3-11-5-7-2-12-10-8-6”
> > (vertical) and “1-6-8-10-12-2-7-5-11-3-4-9” (horizontal). The secret
> > and importance behind these sequences remains to be identified.
> >
> > 4)     
> > It becomes evident that just like the core tool used in
> > LK,  - i.e. houses, at the heart or  LK Varshaphal chart also it is nothing but
> > houses itself.
> >
> > 5)     
> > The LK approach to Varshaphal prediction seems to
> > be unique. Add to it the mystery of concepts such as the following pointed to
> > by Harinder ji â€"“Another reliable factor in timing events can be the
> > Varshphal Chart, although this chart is mostly used by many practitioners to
> > give remedies. Further, details can be obtained by rotating the varshphal chart
> > in a prescribed manner to obtain the monthly or daily or hourly or minute chart
> > etc. to get a more fine tuned result.”.  Apart from the normal use of predicting
> > Varshaphala (results for the year) this tool also seems to be used for
> > subscribing/identifying remedies, and also used in some cute rotation technique
> > (the details of which we might have to collect).
> >
> > Enough for the day!
> >
> >
> > ==========================
> > Love and regards,
> > Sreenadh
> >
> > --- On Tue, 1/4/11, sreesog <sreesog@> wrote:
> >
> > From: sreesog <sreesog@>
> > Subject: [AIA] Re: Lalkitab Review - 7
> > To: ancient_indian_astrology@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Tuesday, January 4, 2011, 8:31 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear All,
> >   I have updated this review at some places and therefore sharing it again.
> > One more day, and I add one more
> > mail to the Lalkitab review sequence.  This time related to the
> > uncertain area of  LK dasa system.
> > =========================
> >
> >
> > Review â€" 7
> >
> > Let us add one more review â€" This time let us discuss one of the most
> > confused areas of LK system â€" i.e. LK Dasa. If there are 10 LK followers, they
> > use it in 10 different ways with 10 different definitions! That is the
> > condition of LK Dasa as of now. Let us see what we can understand about it â€"
> > based on our limited info about the same.
> >
> > Point - 7
> >
> > // 7)      LK
> > has its own Dasa system which is somewhat similar to the Yogini dasa system. //
> >
> > What is that we really know about
> > this dasa? Sincerely there are only three points we really know about this dasa
> > as per LK. They are â€"
> >
> >                     
> > i.           
> > Most possibly the planetary sequence that should
> > followed in this dasa is Ju-Su-Mo-Ve-Ma-Me-Sa-Ra-Ke (the standard LK planetary
> > sequence)
> >
> >                   
> > ii.           
> > The dasa years to be used are  - Ju â€" 6; Sun â€" 2; Mo â€" 1; Ve - 3; Ma â€" 6; Me
> > â€" 2; Sa â€" 6; Ra â€" 6; Ke - 3.
> >
> >                  
> > iii.           
> > LK accepts and uses the concept of Antar dasa
> > within dasa. And possibly every dasa has three antaras within them ascribed to
> > the planet itself and the next two planets in sequence.
> >
> > What ever other things whether regarding
> > how this dasa is to be calculated or the results to be ascribed, that is all
> > simply guess. As Pt. Bhooshan Priya ji puts it in one of his articles â€" "Unfortunately,
> > the book carries just a small paragraph on this 35 year dasa chakra. It is too
> > sketchy. It neither explains how to calculate the dasa nor its results. At
> > least I have not come across any evidence, from the written material that we
> > have, that Pt. Roopchand ji used this dasa himself. Since there are no
> > instructions as to how the dasha cycle will be calculated, Lal Kitab scholars
> > have come up with various alternatives as to how it should be calculated."
> >
> > We should appreciate this sincere opinion.
> > Thus it becomes evident to us that there are no consciences regarding how to
> > calculate this dasa or what results to be told based on the same. Whether there
> > is internal evidence present in LK or not regarding whether Rupchand ji used it
> > or not â€" it can be easily understood that with dasa, progression or transit
> > techniques it is impossible to do `timing of events' correctly. Thus
> > irrespective of whether Rupchand ji talked extensively about Dasa or not in LK,
> > it should be treated as an important part of the system since the reference to
> > the same is available in LK.
> >
> > Before venturing into addressing the `dasa calculation method' issue and
> > the connected `how to derive das results' issue, let me first list down the
> > available opinions and opinions.
> >
> > Dasa calculation
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sl
> >
> >
> > Method
> >
> >
> > Comment
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > Similar to natural Dasa. That means, for every one at birth dasa
> > starts with Saturn (as per Kishan Ashant). The order or planets that should
> > be used is : Sa-Ra-Ke-Ju-Su-Mo-Ve-Ma-Me. After 35 years of age this cycle
> > repeats. This is the opinion of Pt.Kishan Ashant ji
> >
> >
> > LK neither says that the dasa is similar to natural dasa nor that the
> > sequence should start with Saturn.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > Dasa should be calculated on
> > the basis of planet of the time of birth(?).
> >
> >
> > I don't understand this argument correctly. Pt. Bhooshan Priya ji
> > while discarding this opinion states â€" "The fallacy of this
> > argument is that all those born during dark nights or Krishna
> > Paksha and on cloudy days will start their dasha with Saturn.  Hence more than half of the horoscopes will
> > have Saturn as their starting dasha. That does not sound reasonable nor
> > probable."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > The other alternative suggested
> > is that the dasha should be calculated on the basis of the planet of the
> > day(?)
> >
> >
> > Again I don't understand this argument correctly. Pt. Bhooshan Priya
> > ji while discarding this opinion states â€" "If that being so, then no body
> > would ever
> > start the dasha with either Rahu or ketu, because both these planets
> > have not been assigned any day to them. That again would not be probable."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 4
> >
> >
> > Assuming that LK originated
> > Himachal region where Yogini dasa etc was popular Pt. Bhooshan Priya ji
> > suggests calculating the 35 year dasa chakra based on the movement of the
> > moon through nakshatras.
> >
> >
> > The problem associated with this are â€"
> > 1) LK does not use Nakshatras. Therefore depending on Nakshatras do
> > not seem to be acceptable.
> > 2) Nakshatras has their own lords and lord sequence. Depending on
> > Nakshatras but then ascribing a new dasa sequence (in essence new nakshatra
> > lords) is not acceptable. 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 5
> >
> >
> > Harinder ji states â€" "The 35
> > year cycle is based on the palm. the fate line when it touches the head line
> > the 35th year is announced. The natural dasa as per age is followed by
> > Panditji when you see him giving specific results for benefic & malefic
> > conditions of the same planet. Also, the year that a planet comes to the
> > first house in Varshphal for the first time, the dasa for that native starts.
> > Then Venus dasa starts when the person marries & so on. But, the thing to
> > keep in mind is that future years are described in the Varshphal as the most
> > dependable source to see the future year/ month/ day etc. Dashas at
> > best can be used as pointers, not dependable for predictions like the
> > Varshphal."
> >
> >
> > It is not clear whether the dasa is based on palm, or based on
> > natural cycle or based on life events such as marriage etc. This opinion also
> > seems to be a confused one. Also this opinion seems to confuse Varshaphal and
> > dasa. The only notable point seems to be the statement â€" "The
> > natural dasa as per age is followed by Panditji when you see him giving
> > specific results for benefic & malefic conditions of the same planet."
> > , which seems to suggest that â€"
> > 1) Pt. Rupchand Joshi was using
> > this dasa somewhat similar to natural dasa (as we know Kishan Ashat ji,
> > Harinder ji etc are of this opinion)
> > 2) For the same planet within a
> > dasa (possibly) both benefic and malefic results are told by LK.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > What can we do
> > after seeing all these confusions regarding LK Dasa? Nothing?! It does not seem
> > possible for anyone to solve this question before availing and investing more
> > inputs, references and thought process. What should be that inputs and thought
> > process? The prime data that is required to derive any useful guidance
> > regarding the use of this dasa is to know â€" `what is the basis of the LK
> > planetary sequence? (i.e. Ju-Su-Mo-Ve-Ma-Me-Sa-Ra-Ke) Because when we
> > look at AIA the major dasas we see are either Rasi dasas that depend on the
> > sequence of sign lords, or Nakshatra dasas that depend on the sequence of
> > Nakshatra lords. Without such a sound basis for the planetary sequence to be
> > followed it is almost impossible to move even step further in this question of
> > LK Dasa. But LK planetary sequence neither seems to follow the Rasi lordship
> > sequence nor the Nakshatra lordship sequence. Then what could be its base â€"
> > Houses? Pakka Khar? Planet or luck? Why 9 planets are listed in Dasa? Why three
> > antaras for each dasa? Is it not point to the fact that the base is something
> > with a connection 9 x 3 = 27? Questions could be many, but no answers seems to
> > come by. Because the planetary do not seem to match with anything at all!
> >
> > So let us go back to the discussion of planetary sequence
> > and let us see what the LK experts had to offer on this once again â€"
> >
> > Planetary sequence reasoning
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sl
> >
> >
> > Suggestion
> >
> >
> > Remark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > My initial thoughts where â€" "   Side tracking from this LK thread, there is
> > something bit more to these planetary sequences. Let consider one by one
> > -1)  Su-Mo-Ju-Ve-Me-Sa-Ma (Uruk,
> > Babylonian, Parthian, Selucid). Sun and Moon are the major luminaries.
> > Considering the remaining 5 stellar planets (tara
> > graha) please note that the sequence is - Ju-Ve-Me-Sa-Ma  i.e. 2 benefic Ju and Ve on the left; Me the
> > neutral planet on the middle; the malefics Sa and Ma are on the right. Which
> > also means that Ju is the most benefic planet and also that Ma is the most
> > malefic planet as per the Uruk/Babylonian tradition.
> > 2) Mo-Su-Ju-Ve-Sa-Me-Ma (Chaldian/Neo-babylonian). I
> > don't know the logic behind this set.
> > 3) Su-Mo-Ma-Me-Ju-Ve-Sa (Indian). The kalahora
> > sequence.  We know the logic, remember
> > the famous Madhaveeya quotes - "Tatah pancha pancha kremenetaresham,
> > nisayamtu vareswaral panchamadya". The lord of the first hour is
> > considered as the weekday lord. And the weekday lord sequence gained prominence.
> > 4) 
> > Su-Mo-Sa-Ju-Ma-Ve-Me (Greek).  No need to tell. Removing the luminaries the
> > remaining is Sa-Ju-Ma-Ve-Me. It is well evident that the planets are arranged
> > based on their distance from the Sun. Saturn is the farthest and Me is the
> > nearest, remaining falls in between in order.
> > 5) LK sequence. Now comes the mystic LK sequence -
> > Ju-Su-Mo-Ve-Ma-Me-Sa-Ra-Ke
> > Following the trend, I am removing the luminaries.
> > What I get is  "Ju-Ve-Ma-Me-Sa-Ra-Ke". If I remove Ra and Ke
> > as well then, "Ju-Ve-Ma-Me-Sa" remains. That doesn't make much
> > sense for me. Following the Uruk/Babylonian  logic should I guess that
> > as per LK Ju and Ve are benefics; Ma is neutral; Me and Sa are malefics? Or
> > should we assume that it is corruption happened to the Babylonian logic and re-arrange
> > the sequence by exchanging the place of Ma and Me and arrange it similar to
> > the Babylonian style as "Ju-Ve-Me-Ma-Sa"? Or follow the Indian
> > weekday style logic and try to understand it in some other way? Or drop all
> > these efforts and try to understand the sequence as is with that Ra-Ke and
> > Su-Mo in it intact?"
> >
> >
> > Too many choices and none of these makes sense in our
> > modified understanding of LK as an expert shortcut system to AIA (a
> > simplified version of AIA).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > Pt. Bhooshan Priya ji wrote to me â€" "Just a thought:
> > The planetary sequence starts with Jupiter, sun, moon [brahma,vishnu,mahesh]
> > the trinity of Hindu patheon; venus [lakshmi], mars [hanuman] mercury [durga]
> > two of them Shakti forms and hanuman too might be taken as a part of the Trio
> > because he too represents shakti and gyaan [strength and knowledge]; saturn
> > [bhairon], rahu [saraswati], ketu [ganesh] are the traditional deities for
> > these planets. The same planetary sequence is used for the 35 year cycle
> > [dasha]"
> >
> >
> > For me the prime impression was that â€" no, this may not
> > be the correct reason.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > Harinder ji gave a long description arguing that the
> > given planetary sequence could be based on Tatwas.
> > "The sequence of planets have been given according to
> > how the tattwas form & maintain the human body. Let me explain this a
> > little more clearly.
> > The air tattwa or prana in it are represented by
> > Jupiter. The fire tattwa which is formed subsequently is represented by Sun.
> > When air (or oxygen) is mixed with fire (hydrogen) it makes water (H2O)or
> > Jala Tattwa or Moon. The earth element which follows in the sequence of the
> > tattwas is ruled by Venus because just as a woman gives birth to life so this
> > mother earth gives birth to many forms of life. The food thus produced is
> > ruled by Mars which is a secondary form of the Agni Tattwa which has a
> > function of transforming matter from one form to another, thus it rules
> > digestion in the body also. The primary Agni is The Sun.
> > This body of food (Annamaya Kosha) has intelligence
> > & communicates/ speaks which is ruled by Mercury. The power to influence
> > others through charisma is a striking ability of the human being. This he
> > does through many ways & the use of Magic & Mantras to influence life
> > events which is ruled by Saturn. The path one follows & the thoughts that
> > lead people to decide & commit acts and suffer bad results or enjoy good
> > results is ruled by Rahu. Finally, the ability of a person to socialise &
> > move forward with the use of the feet (which means travel & movement in
> > general also) is ruled by Ketu.
> > This is a very incomplete definition but I have meant
> > to explain in a small way the questions, very deservedly, raised by you."
> >
> >
> > I felt it as too complex and not in tune with AIA. The
> > connection of planets to the tattwas mentioned here is different than that in
> > traditional astrology. LK avoids any complexity and out of tune things with
> > AIA and vedic philosophy is rare to find in it. Thus this choice might not be
> > correct I think.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > Niramal Bharadwaj ji's opinion is that the planetary
> > sequence could be related to the mounds in palm. He  states â€" "In my presumption it may be
> > related with palmistry. The first mount belongs to Jupiter.  The crude way to justify the sequence is
> > take two mounts owners from top of the palm Ju â€" Su, Take Two female owners
> > from the bottom of palm- Mo-Ve, Owner of Two mounts of Middle of palm- Mars,
> > Take remaining four of Mukhannas Plates (Eunuch term is used in English But
> > not an appropriate term) i.e Two Mount from the top whose owners are
> > Mukhannas    Planets â€" Me-Sa and two
> > from bottom part outside the palm area Ra-Ke( Rahu and ketu have not given
> > any space in Palm) though they have forcible taken the house no 6-12 on palm"
> >
> >
> > Since as per my current understanding LK is primarily an
> > astrological system and other knowledge branches are used as a supporting
> > system. In LK Palmistry is used to supplement the astrological system and it
> > is not that Astrology is used to support palmistry. Due to this very reason I
> > think this choice is not correct.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Realizations come to us in a flash, and at times guided by
> > chances and coincidences. And something like that dawn to me today regarding
> > the planetary sequence used in LK. Let me put that too into perspective.  Yesterday I received a book of Varshaphala
> > (that too a coincidence our next discussion point is `Varsha Phala used in LK')
> > . The text gave the planetary sequence as follows â€" Su-Mo-Ma-Me-Ju-Ve-Sa-Ra-Ke.
> > Please notice that there is nothing new in here since the planets are all
> > listed in the weekday order with just Rahu and Ketu added at the end. But all
> > of a sudden the striking similarity attracted my attention! What is the
> > difference we find in the LK sequence related to this? Simple â€" the two
> > beneficiaries Ju and Ve are removed from their place in this list and Ju added
> > at the first place and Ve after Mo! That is all the change that is required and
> > we get the LK seqnce â€" Ju-Su-Mo-Ve-Ma-Me-Sa-Ra-Ke. So the next question
> > would be â€" why Rupchand Joshi ji did this change? The answer I think is that,
> > he was just grouping the benefic planets at one side and malefic on the other,
> > especially evident from the fact that he really calls Sa-Ra-Ke as
> > malefic. Thus the possibility is that, as per LK the sequence is â€" [Ju-Su-Mo-Ve]-Ma-[Me-Sa-Ra-Ke]
> > â€" i.e. four benefics Ju-Su-Mo-Ve separated from the four malefics
> > Me-Sa-Ra-Ke by the neutral planet Ma! This assumption goes well with the
> > expectation of natural simplicity of LK.
> >
> > May be I should re-visit my list of natural
> > benefics-malefics list I provided as if as per LK! This would also mean that Ju
> > is the most (naturally) benefic planet as per LK and Ke is the most (naturally)
> > malefic planet! Most possibly those planets are listed in the order of their
> > benefic nature! I also remember that Me is called `unfaithful slave girl
> > (londi)' by LK and also that house were Mercury is posited is called `desert'
> > (regastan), and also that Me in 11th is termed `Ullu ka patha
> > (Fool)'! True â€" Mercury is a malefic than a benefic as per LK! Stunned with
> > this realization I checked the results attributed to Mars in various houses â€"
> > if Mars is treated as malefic (as in AIA) I am expected to find bad results,
> > and if neutral (as per the above assumed LK logic then) generally neutral or
> > benefic results. What I found was â€" Mars in the 1st house is called
> > `hero of the war front', Mars in 2nd house is called `embodiment of
> > religiousness', Mars in 3rd house is said to be `auspicious for
> > others and inauspicious for the native himself', Mars in 4th is
> > called `burning fire or the chief of the evil' but then again not much bad for
> > the native himself, Mars in 5th is called `Brother or Neem tree' and
> > so on! Really LK seems to treat Mars as neutral planet rather than a malefic!
> > And again I cross check the results attributed to Ke and see that Ketu is
> > treated as a naturally malefic planet. Then I go back to see how Sun is treated.
> > As per AIA Sun is malefic even though the significator of soul. If as assumed
> > above if as per LK Sun is treated as a natural benefic I expect to see mostly
> > beneficial results for  Sun in various
> > houses if not especially in enemy houses. And I see that â€" Sun in lagna is
> > called `just ruler', Sun in 2nd is said to make the native `self
> > confident and charitable', Sun in 3rd is called `king of the
> > wealth', Sun in 4th is said to help the native to `earn and hoards
> > wealth', Sun in 5th is called `master of family progress' and so on!
> > Truly Sun is treated like a natural benefic! I think this realization is worth looking at!
> >
> > Anyway this
> > possibly indicate that now we know the possible base of planetary sequence used
> > in LK. But does that help us to decipher the dasa system (the number of years
> > ascribed to planets, the calculation method to be used etc) to be used with LK?
> > Not much, even though this could be a worthy clue. This seems to be a research
> > subject which we cannot expect to come to a reliable conclusion within this
> > short review. So I leave this issue of LK dasa calculation here and move on. LK
> > the experts smoke their brain further on this.
> >
> > Dasa results
> >
> > Even though LK do not suggest how to derive the results for dasa, it
> > seems to be well logical to assume that â€" the results related to or generated
> > by specific planets and combinations will manifest in the dasa ascribed to that
> > planet. (following the AIA style). Thus deriving the dasa results and ascribing
> > it to various dasa periods may not be a major issue, once the issue of properly
> > calculating the dasa is solved.
> >
> >  
> >
> > Other Dasa systems
> >
> > Some others (such as Nirmal ji) are of the opinion that apart from 35
> > year dasa cycle, other dasa cycles such as the 36 year cycle and a Maha dasa
> > cycle are mentioned and used by LK. His states as follows â€" "In fact there
> > is no terminology of dasha system in Lalkitab. Astrologers have devised their
> > own dasha system from 35 sala Chakra. (35 year cycle of planets). There is also
> > a mention of 36 Years Cycle. But There is a system of Maha dasha but that is
> > totally different from the vimshotri and other dasha systems."
> >
> > As per this opinion, three dasa systems are suggested by LK, such as â€"
> >
> > i.                    
> > 35 year
> > planetary cycle
> >
> > ii.                  
> > 36 year
> > planetary cycle
> >
> > iii.                 
> > A Maha
> > dasa system
> >
> > Again this is possibly an argument that demands further study and
> > further evidence to come to any useful and practically applicable conclusion.
> >
> >  
> >
> > For us in the current situation the status regarding the use of Dasa in
> > LK as almost equal to NIL. With all these confusions existing it is as good as
> > assuming that â€" there is no dasa system widely in use in LK; and if you want to
> > do the timing of events better use and depend on other techniques such as
> > `progression and transit'. I will address these possibilities and the related
> > issues in the coming mails.
> >
> >  
> >
> > Enough for the day!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =========================
> > Love and regards,
> > Sreenadh
> >
> > --- In ancient_indian_astrology@yahoogroups.com, "sreesog" <sreesog@> wrote:
> >
> > Re: Lalkitab Review - 6
> >
> > Dear All,
> >   Let me add one more mail to
> > this Lalkitab review sequence.  Today's mail is bit critical because may
> > be I
> > adding something to LK understanding by this mail, or I am
> > misunderstanding it.  So I would request the LK experts to critically
> > comment on this mail specially.  Am I getting this right or wrong - what
> > do you say? May be a discussion only can clarify things better.
> >
> > Let me post review - 6
> >
> > ===================
> >
> > Review â€" 6
> > One more day and let us add one more review â€"
> > This time on the thought to be `most difficult area in LK study', the concept
> > of benefic and malefic planets. This is point regarding which most amount of
> > study, understanding and realization I received during my LK study.
> >  
> > Point â€" 6
> > // 6)      Benefic and Malefic planets:  LK does not consider any planet as inherently
> > benefic or malefic. It says that every planet is capable of giving benefic or
> > malefic results. (We should accept that this approach is logically correct and excellent)
> > But this is introduces a new difficulty and complexity, and thus one of the
> > most difficult areas in LK to master. Because there are numerous such rules are
> > there which determine whether a planet is benefic or malefic in the given
> > chart. "Such rules are too many. For each planet there are different rules,
> > depending on which house the planet is and which other planets influence it.
> > These rules are both for benefic and malefic results of that planet." So what
> > makes a planet benefic or malefic as per LK? The answer would be â€" "The
> > planetary placement and interrelationships of the planets. And most
> > importantly, the jatak's way of life, habits, moral, attitude towards religion,
> > relationships with other family members etc. e.g if some one insults his father,
> > teacher or a purohit his jupiter will act as malefic even if it may be placed
> > in the 4th house [exalted] and so on." (Yes, certainly this is an area to which
> > we should come back and discuss in detail later)//
> > It is certain that if we are taking the above approach, we will have to
> > say that LK is NOT a simple system. But while discussing the previous point we
> > realized that â€" "LK cannot be complex, but simple and straight'.
> > Trusting this dictum let us try to find the simple and straight rule behind
> > identifying a planet as malefic or benefic as per LK. Let us hope that we will
> > succeed in this effort.
> > The first point to understand is that, the above given statement â€" "LK
> > does not consider any planet as inherently benefic or malefic" is only
> > partially correct. Because LK do have the concept of natural benefic and
> > malefic. Let us understand this first, and compare it with AIA.
> >  
> > 1) Natural Benefic and malefic
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> >
> >
> > Benefic
> >
> >
> > Malefic
> >
> >
> > Nutral
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > LK
> >
> >
> > Ju, Ve, Mo
> >
> >
> > (Su, Ma), Sa, Ra, Ke, (Me)
> >
> >
> > -
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > AIA
> >
> >
> > Ju, Ve, Mo, Me devoid of malefic conjunction
> >
> >
> > Sun, Weak Moon, Ma, Me placed along with malefic, Sa, Ra, Ke
> >
> >
> > -
> >
> >
> >
> > Every planet given in bracket in the above list indicate some amount of
> > confusion. As you could see there seems to be some amount of confusion in LK
> > regarding which planet is malefic and which is benefic â€" possibly because it is
> > not clearly stated anywhere in the book. From the scenarios discussed it seems
> > that in many situations LK treats Me as malefic rather than benefic. Similar
> > confusion seems to exist regarding Sun and Mars as well; possibly because it is
> > not stated clearly anywhere in the text that Sun and Mars should be treated as
> > malefic. But for sure it is clear to LK followers that Sa, Ra and Ke are
> > naturally malefic.  Let the LK followers
> > take a lesson on this from AIA â€" and clarify their confusion regarding this,
> > and understand clearly that similar to AIA, LK too has the concept of natural
> > benefic and malefic and also that the system followed here too is very similar
> > to AIA, except some minor extra comments and concerns regarding the role of Me
> > and Mo.  (Mo too is considered malefic in
> > certain situations as per LK; e.g. Moon in 3rd house)
> >  
> > But this is no final word. LK has two more methods based on which it
> > should be determined whether a planet is benefic or malefic.
> >  
> > 2) From the natal chart (Functional Malefic and Benefic)
> > I take back my previous statement that â€" "Because there are numerous
> > such rules are there which determine whether a planet is benefic or malefic in
> > the given chart". No, there is not! There is only one simple and straight rule
> > to determine whether a planet is benefic or malefic! What is that? The rule is
> > â€" "Any planet placed in an enemy house or influenced by an enemy planet
> > will give malefic results, otherwise benefic results". It is very
> > important to know this concept clearly. And also to understand that there is no
> > concept of 6-8-12 lords becoming malefic etc in LK. LK drops the concept of
> > associating malefic-benefic etc with house lordship! But instead simply depends
> > on the facts whether it is placed in an enemy house or not and whether it is
> > influenced by an enemy planet or not. Yes, again a short-cut approach!
> > I am listing down some examples for this approach â€"
> > Sun in 1st house â€" benefic, since it is placed in the house
> > of Mars
> > Sun in 2nd house â€" malefic, since it is placed in the house
> > of Venus
> > Sun in 3rd house â€" can't say. Moon is placed in the house
> > Mercury (who change nature as per situation, and himself an enuch) Thus the
> > result depends on the nature of mercury or the behavior of the native. (LK says
> > - The sun will keep on becoming malefic as the native will increase his
> > quarrels for wealth, women, and land; otherwise benefic)
> > Sun in 4th house â€" benefic, since it is placed in the house
> > of Moon
> > Sun in 5th house â€" benefic, since it is placed in its own
> > house and so on.
> >  
> > But please note that these results can change depending on the
> > aspect/influence of other friend or enemy planets on Sun. And the same for
> > other planets. Thus the next rule to note in this regard is that â€" apart
> > from the placement in enemy or friend's house, the aspect/influence of friend
> > or enemy planet also modifies the benefic or malefic nature of the planet.
> >  
> > Another important point to note in this regard is that â€" functionally
> > benefic or malefic, aspect of natural malefic would always give
> > malefic result. One example is given below â€"
> > Sun in lagna (aspecting 7th) and Saturn in 8th â€"
> > malefic result for 7th (wife after wife will die)
> > Note that in this example even though a benefic himself giving good
> > results, (since placed in Lagna), Sun causes malefic result for wife due to its
> > aspect on 7th house. (7th aspected by a natural malefic)
> >  
> > Thus in the words of Pt. Bhooshan Priya ji it can be said that â€" "The
> > benefic or the malefic results of a planet will depend on â€" the planetary placement,
> > inter relationship of planets and character of the native". I agree with
> > him and realize that - placement on enemy or friend's house, aspect/influence
> > of enemy or friend planet, behavior of the native especially in cases where the
> > result could be uncertain are the three major factors of importance here, which
> > decides whether the result produced by the a planet would be malefic or benefic
> > in nature. Also as in the case of  the
> > example quotes above (that of Sun in lagna, and Sun in lagna while Saturn in 8th)
> > â€" the same planet can at times give BOTH benefic and malefic results. And
> > ofcourse as clarified by Nirmal ji earlier while discussing Dridha and Adridha
> > results â€" there is no cancellation of results; you can create a wall to block
> > the bad effects through a remedy, but cannot directly modify or influence the
> > planet (Lion in the example) itself.
> > There is one more point to remember in this context â€" the same
> > planet may give benefic or malefic results in different periods of life based
> > on dasa and transit running for the current period.
> > I think just this much only are the major rules that determine whether
> > a planet is functional benefic or malefic. To avoid further complexity, LK
> > drops many AIA considerations in this regard such as â€"
> >                     
> > i.           
> > Lordship
> > of 6-8-12 houses determining whether a planet is benefic or malefic
> >                   
> > ii.           
> > Placement
> > in own house, exaltation, debilitation etc starting from signs such as Aries
> > determining whether a planet is benefic or malefic
> >                  
> > iii.           
> > The
> > lordship of 3-5-7 Nakshatras or dasa coming in particular sequence (e.g. )
> > determining whether a planet is benefic or malefic especially in vimsottari
> > dasa
> >                 
> > iv.           
> > Kendradhipatya
> > dosha, Badhaka sthana adipatya or other similar concepts determining whether the results indicated by a planet is benefic or
> > malefic and so on
> > LK simply drops all such complexities and chooses the simple and
> > straight path of considering only the planetary friendship and enmity alone
> > in determining whether a planet will give benefic or malefic result. Certainly it is an excellent short-cut chose
> > by an expert astrologer who dislikes complexities.
> >  
> > 3) Identification based on external symptoms
> > This is another cute way of judging whether a planet is benefic or
> > malefic. The concept is that â€" a benefic or malefic planet produces some
> > symptoms/results. If we observe the symptoms/results then too we can judge
> > (this is a kind of reverse engineering!) whether the planet in the horoscope is
> > benefic or malefic. For example (I am quoting from Krishan Ashant's book) â€"
> > Moon: If a
> > milching animal dies health of the mother deteriorates, it is clear
> > indication of malefic Moon.Mars:
> > Malefic Mars is signified by the death of a child in the family soon after
> > birth, injury caused to eyes or blood disease. Joint pain also signifies
> > malefic Mars.Mercury:
> > Malefic Mercury will be indicated by the loss of sense of smell, teeth
> > start falling off early. It would be difficult to maintain harmonious
> > relations with close friends. Stammering will also signify malefic
> > Mercury. Venus: Pain
> > or similar malady in the thumb of the native signifies that Venus is
> > turning malefic. Moreover, skin disease is also indicative of malefic
> > Venus.
> >  
> > And so on for other planets as well. I think these examples make the
> > approach clear. Thus in short to take a picturesque example, judging whether a
> > planet is benefic or malefic is like a doctor judging a patient by using
> > various means. For example â€"
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> > Sl
> >
> >
> > Method
> >
> >
> > Remark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 1
> >
> >
> > Based on the general climate (summer, winter etc or other environment
> > conditions) the doctor can predict that the patient may have x and y
> > diseases.
> >
> >
> > This is similar to using the natural benefic-malefic classification
> > of planets. This method is not much dependable and may not give accurate
> > results, and therefore less important.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2
> >
> >
> > After observing the x-ray of the native; testing his blood, urine or
> > what ever and conducting a detailed study of the patient.
> >
> >
> > This is like judging the benefic-malefic nature of the planets based
> > on horoscope. The functional benefic-malefic nature is given importance here.
> > This is the most scientific and systematic approach. This demands only the
> > knowledge of astrology and is therefore much reliable. This is the method for
> > judging "results from planetary position".
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 3
> >
> >
> > By observing symptoms (such as cold, headache, back pain, fever,
> > omitting etc) expressed by the native 
> > and thus trying to judge the actual disease based on symptoms 
> >
> >
> > This is like judging whether the planet is actually benefic or
> > malefic based on the results observed. Utilizing this method is possible only
> > for the experts, since it demands knowledge of various knowledge branches
> > (such as vastu, palmistry, samudrika, omens, social customs and rituals,
> > knowledge ayurveda and so on) and also great amount of experience. Though
> > much useful, since it helps for a kind of reverse engineering, such as "derive
> > planetary position from the results". This method is not suggested for the
> > beginners and is if they try to depend on it there is every chance that they
> > won't get it correct and blame the method instead of their on incapability
> > for the wrong judgments derived.
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> > Does all these has any conflict or non-compatibility with AIA approach?
> > Nop. Because all these methods are COMMON to both AIA and LK. There is nothing
> > new here except the expert adaptation of the system. Here too we find that
> > there is excellent compatibility between LK and AIA and also that LK is an
> > expert shortcut system to AIA.
> > Enough for the day.
> > ===================
> > Love and regards,
> > Sreenadh
> >
>

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