[astrostudents] Fw: [AIA] Re: Lalkitab Review - 6

 

FYI --- On Mon, 1/3/11, sreesog <sreesog@yahoo.com> wrote: From: sreesog <sreesog@yahoo.com> Subject: [AIA] Re: Lalkitab Review - 6 To: ancient_indian_astrology@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 5:58 PM Dear All,   Let me add one more mail to this Lalkitab review sequence.  Today's mail is bit critical because may be I adding something to LK understanding by this mail, or I am misunderstanding it.  So I would request the LK experts to critically comment on this mail specially.  Am I getting this right or wrong - what do you say? May be a discussion only can clarify things better. Let me post review - 6 =================== Review – 6 One more day and let us add one more review – This time on the thought to be `most difficult area in LK study', the concept of benefic and malefic planets. This is point regarding which most amount of study, understanding and realization I received during my LK study.   Point – 6 // 6)      Benefic and Malefic planets:  LK does not consider any planet as inherently benefic or malefic. It says that every planet is capable of giving benefic or malefic results. (We should accept that this approach is logically correct and excellent) But this is introduces a new difficulty and complexity, and thus one of the most difficult areas in LK to master. Because there are numerous such rules are there which determine whether a planet is benefic or malefic in the given chart. "Such rules are too many. For each planet there are different rules, depending on which house the planet is and which other planets influence it. These rules are both for benefic and malefic results of that planet." So what makes a planet benefic or malefic as per LK? The answer would be – "The planetary placement and interrelationships of the planets. And most importantly, the jatak's way of life, habits, moral, attitude towards religion, relationships with other family members etc. e.g if some one insults his father, teacher or a purohit his jupiter will act as malefic even if it may be placed in the 4th house [exalted] and so on." (Yes, certainly this is an area to which we should come back and discuss in detail later)// It is certain that if we are taking the above approach, we will have to say that LK is NOT a simple system. But while discussing the previous point we realized that – "LK cannot be complex, but simple and straight'. Trusting this dictum let us try to find the simple and straight rule behind identifying a planet as malefic or benefic as per LK. Let us hope that we will succeed in this effort. The first point to understand is that, the above given statement – "LK does not consider any planet as inherently benefic or malefic" is only partially correct. Because LK do have the concept of natural benefic and malefic. Let us understand this first, and compare it with AIA.   1) Natural Benefic and malefic - Benefic Malefic Nutral LK Ju, Ve, Mo (Su, Ma), Sa, Ra, Ke, (Me) - AIA Ju, Ve, Mo, Me devoid of malefic conjunction Sun, Weak Moon, Ma, Me placed along with malefic, Sa, Ra, Ke - Every planet given in bracket in the above list indicate some amount of confusion. As you could see there seems to be some amount of confusion in LK regarding which planet is malefic and which is benefic – possibly because it is not clearly stated anywhere in the book. From the scenarios discussed it seems that in many situations LK treats Me as malefic rather than benefic. Similar confusion seems to exist regarding Sun and Mars as well; possibly because it is not stated clearly anywhere in the text that Sun and Mars should be treated as malefic. But for sure it is clear to LK followers that Sa, Ra and Ke are naturally malefic.  Let the LK followers take a lesson on this from AIA – and clarify their confusion regarding this, and understand clearly that similar to AIA, LK too has the concept of natural benefic and malefic and also that the system followed here too is very similar to AIA, except some minor extra comments and concerns regarding the role of Me and Mo.  (Mo too is considered malefic in certain situations as per LK; e.g. Moon in 3rd house)   But this is no final word. LK has two more methods based on which it should be determined whether a planet is benefic or malefic.   2) From the natal chart (Functional Malefic and Benefic) I take back my previous statement that – "Because there are numerous such rules are there which determine whether a planet is benefic or malefic in the given chart". No, there is not! There is only one simple and straight rule to determine whether a planet is benefic or malefic! What is that? The rule is – "Any planet placed in an enemy house or influenced by an enemy planet will give malefic results, otherwise benefic results". It is very important to know this concept clearly. And also to understand that there is no concept of 6-8-12 lords becoming malefic etc in LK. LK drops the concept of associating malefic-benefic etc with house lordship! But instead simply depends on the facts whether it is placed in an enemy house or not and whether it is influenced by an enemy planet or not. Yes, again a short-cut approach! I am listing down some examples for this approach – Sun in 1st house – benefic, since it is placed in the house of Mars Sun in 2nd house – malefic, since it is placed in the house of Venus Sun in 3rd house – can't say. Moon is placed in the house Mercury (who change nature as per situation, and himself an enuch) Thus the result depends on the nature of mercury or the behavior of the native. (LK says - The sun will keep on becoming malefic as the native will increase his quarrels for wealth, women, and land; otherwise benefic) Sun in 4th house – benefic, since it is placed in the house of Moon Sun in 5th house – benefic, since it is placed in its own house and so on.   But please note that these results can change depending on the aspect/influence of other friend or enemy planets on Sun. And the same for other planets. Thus the next rule to note in this regard is that – apart from the placement in enemy or friend's house, the aspect/influence of friend or enemy planet also modifies the benefic or malefic nature of the planet.   Another important point to note in this regard is that – functionally benefic or malefic, aspect of natural malefic would always give malefic result. One example is given below – Sun in lagna (aspecting 7th) and Saturn in 8th – malefic result for 7th (wife after wife will die) Note that in this example even though a benefic himself giving good results, (since placed in Lagna), Sun causes malefic result for wife due to its aspect on 7th house. (7th aspected by a natural malefic)   Thus in the words of Pt. Bhooshan Priya ji it can be said that – "The benefic or the malefic results of a planet will depend on – the planetary placement, inter relationship of planets and character of the native". I agree with him and realize that - placement on enemy or friend's house, aspect/influence of enemy or friend planet, behavior of the native especially in cases where the result could be uncertain are the three major factors of importance here, which decides whether the result produced by the a planet would be malefic or benefic in nature. Also as in the case of  the example quotes above (that of Sun in lagna, and Sun in lagna while Saturn in 8th) – the same planet can at times give BOTH benefic and malefic results. And ofcourse as clarified by Nirmal ji earlier while discussing Dridha and Adridha results – there is no cancellation of results; you can create a wall to block the bad effects through a remedy, but cannot directly modify or influence the planet (Lion in the example) itself. There is one more point to remember in this context – the same planet may give benefic or malefic results in different periods of life based on dasa and transit running for the current period. I think just this much only are the major rules that determine whether a planet is functional benefic or malefic. To avoid further complexity, LK drops many AIA considerations in this regard such as –                      i.            Lordship of 6-8-12 houses determining whether a planet is benefic or malefic                    ii.            Placement in own house, exaltation, debilitation etc starting from signs such as Aries determining whether a planet is benefic or malefic                   iii.            The lordship of 3-5-7 Nakshatras or dasa coming in particular sequence (e.g. ) determining whether a planet is benefic or malefic especially in vimsottari dasa                  iv.            Kendradhipatya dosha, Badhaka sthana adipatya or other similar concepts determining whether the results indicated by a planet is benefic or malefic and so on LK simply drops all such complexities and chooses the simple and straight path of considering only the planetary friendship and enmity alone in determining whether a planet will give benefic or malefic result. Certainly it is an excellent short-cut chose by an expert astrologer who dislikes complexities.   3) Identification based on external symptoms This is another cute way of judging whether a planet is benefic or malefic. The concept is that – a benefic or malefic planet produces some symptoms/results. If we observe the symptoms/results then too we can judge (this is a kind of reverse engineering!) whether the planet in the horoscope is benefic or malefic. For example (I am quoting from Krishan Ashant's book) – Moon: If a milching animal dies health of the mother deteriorates, it is clear indication of malefic Moon. Mars: Malefic Mars is signified by the death of a child in the family soon after birth, injury caused to eyes or blood disease. Joint pain also signifies malefic Mars. Mercury: Malefic Mercury will be indicated by the loss of sense of smell, teeth start falling off early. It would be difficult to maintain harmonious relations with close friends. Stammering will also signify malefic Mercury. Venus: Pain or similar malady in the thumb of the native signifies that Venus is turning malefic. Moreover, skin disease is also indicative of malefic Venus.   And so on for other planets as well. I think these examples make the approach clear. Thus in short to take a picturesque example, judging whether a planet is benefic or malefic is like a doctor judging a patient by using various means. For example –   Sl Method Remark 1 Based on the general climate (summer, winter etc or other environment conditions) the doctor can predict that the patient may have x and y diseases. This is similar to using the natural benefic-malefic classification of planets. This method is not much dependable and may not give accurate results, and therefore less important. 2 After observing the x-ray of the native; testing his blood, urine or what ever and conducting a detailed study of the patient. This is like judging the benefic-malefic nature of the planets based on horoscope. The functional benefic-malefic nature is given importance here. This is the most scientific and systematic approach. This demands only the knowledge of astrology and is therefore much reliable. This is the method for judging "results from planetary position". 3 By observing symptoms (such as cold, headache, back pain, fever, omitting etc) expressed by the native  and thus trying to judge the actual disease based on symptoms  This is like judging whether the planet is actually benefic or malefic based on the results observed. Utilizing this method is possible only for the experts, since it demands knowledge of various knowledge branches (such as vastu, palmistry, samudrika, omens, social customs and rituals, knowledge ayurveda and so on) and also great amount of experience. Though much useful, since it helps for a kind of reverse engineering, such as "derive planetary position from the results". This method is not suggested for the beginners and is if they try to depend on it there is every chance that they won't get it correct and blame the method instead of their on incapability for the wrong judgments derived.   Does all these has any conflict or non-compatibility with AIA approach? Nop. Because all these methods are COMMON to both AIA and LK. There is nothing new here except the expert adaptation of the system. Here too we find that there is excellent compatibility between LK and AIA and also that LK is an expert shortcut system to AIA. Enough for the day. =================== Love and regards, Sreenadh --- In ancient_indian_astrology@yahoogroups.com, "sreesog" <sreesog@...> wrote: Dear All,   Let me add one more mail to this Lalkitab review sequence.  Continuing the method we have outlined let me continue this discussion by considering the second point I listed in the Review -2 mail. Point – 2 // 2)      Planetary Aspect (Drishti) – Planetary aspect is the same as in AIA. But there is a clause. `Aspect will be felt only if aspected house is occupied by another planet'. For example if Sun is placed in 10th house from Saturn then it can be said that Sun is aspected by Saturn. But if 10th house is vacant, then it cannot be said that Saturn is aspecting 10th house.// Possibly that was too simple. Let me clarify a bit further. There are two types of aspects considered in LK. 1) Full aspect (which includes direct aspect as well as special aspect) and 2) Partial aspect  We remember that these two considerations are there in AIA as well. Let us consider them one by one.   Full aspect: This includes direct aspect as well as special aspect.  Direct aspect is the aspect on the 7th house from the house where the planet is placed. Special aspect is for Jupiter (on 5th and 9th), Mars (on 4th and 8th) and Saturn (on 3rd and 10th). As stated earlier the only extra clause is that - Aspect will be felt only if aspected house is occupied by another planet. But considering the fact that Partial aspect is also considered and also that there is a concept of dormant houses and planets, a clarification should be added. As per LK whether there is a planet in the aspected house or not the aspect would be there, but adds that the aspect results would be really felt if only there is a planet in the aspected house. Or in short generally speaking the full aspect concept of LK is the same as in AIA.   Partial Aspect: There seems to be total confusion regarding how the partial aspect should be counted in various LK camps. One camp states that the partial aspect is exactly the same as in AIA (i.e. 25% aspect in 3-10; 50% aspect in 5-9; 75% aspect in 4-8; and 0% aspect in 2-6-11-12); another camp states that the aspect should be counted in some other manner (e.g. 100% in 1-4-7-10; 505% in 3-5-9-11; 25% in 2-6-8-12); yet another camp is in another confusion. Let us leave the LK camps to fight among themselves and come to a conclusion on this. As of now instead of accepting any one parties opinion it is better for us that we leave this issue here accepting the diplomatic statements such as the one put forward by Nirmal ji – i.e. `The Drishti concept is totally different and still more research is required in this concept'. That is, no comment on this regard is worthwhile or going to lead to a definite conclusion at this point.     To be stated in general the LK perspective on Drishti (aspect) does seem to be compatible with AIA view (at least from a liberal view than an orthodox view). Anyway possibly there are neither any shortcuts nor longcuts used by LK here, but the concepts seem to be similar. Point - 4 // 3)      Some say that, as per Lalkitab planets change significance when they change house. For example Moon in 4th indicate mother, in 6th indicate maternal grand mother, in 8th indicate elder aunt, in 10th younger aunt etc. But may be instead of assuming that planet is changing significance as they change house, we can explain it better if we assume that the house signify such relatives and the results are getting visible through the planets situated there. // As almost every LK followers seems to accept by now (here Bhooshan Priya ji and Nirmal ji already expressed this opinion I think), these are house significance rather than planetary significance. It is better correct to assume that "the house signify such relatives and the results are getting visible through the planets situated there". Or in short there is not much of difference between LK and AIA regarding this, may be except minor difference of opinion regarding the fact that which house signify what (which relative etc). For example the questions and confusions such as whether it is 9th or 10th which signify father etc are common to both LK and AIA. Thus here too LK approach seems to be well compatible with the AIA perspective. Anyway possibly there are neither any shortcuts nor longcuts used by LK here, but the concepts seem to be similar.   Point – 5 // 4)      The concept of Dridha and Adhridha results is present in lalkitab system as well. As accepted in AIA Dridha results cannot be modified or changed with remedies but Adridha results can.  But there is something special in deciding which are dridha and which are adridha results. Let me explain it a bit. As per LK every house is assigned one or more planets which indicate `planet of sign results' (rasiphal ka grah) and `planet of planet results' (grahaphal ka grah). It is said that `Planet of planet results' indicate dridha results and `planet of sign results' indicate adridha results.  The remedies are said to work only for adridha results, i.e. results indicated by `planet of sign results'. Or in other words – "those planets which are considered as of `grah phal' are of dridha results and no upaya can be done for those planets. Those planets which are considered of `rasi phal' in a house are of adhridha results and an upaya can be done for them". // The list of `planet of sign results' and `planet of planet results' related to every house would be given below – House Planet of Planet result (Grah phal ka grah) – indicating Dridha phal Planet of House Result (Rasi phal ka grah) – indicating Adridha phal 1 Ma Ra 2 Ra, Ke - 3 Sa Sa (for money matters) 4 Mo Ma, Ve, Ke 5 Ju, Su - 6 Me, Ke Sa 7 Ve Su, Ju, Ra 8 Ma - 9 Ju Sa 10 Sa Me, Ke 11 Ju, Sa - 12 Ra Me How to determine which result is Dridha Phal (results indicated by Graha phal ka grah) and which is Adridha phal (results indicated by Rasi phal ka grah) as per LK? Let me quote the words of Nirmal ji as stated in one of the earlier mails posted in this thread- "The main rule is the planet which resides in its Pakka Ghar, Rashi or Ghar, Its ghar of Exaltation or debilitation then it becomes Grah Phal Planets.  The planets in other conditions became of rashi phal. In the later case the remedial measures can be prescribed by an astrologer. But in former case though in few circumstances the remedies are given in book and are considered safe. Pt. Ji has given a hidden warning that Few Great souls in the world can prescribe the remedies, but the result will be tit for tat. The story of Babar & Hamayun is cited as an example. In both the cases the effect of planet cannot be altered. the summary of example given in the book is : A lion is coming towards a person. He raises a wall between him and Lion. Lion try to jump upon the wall he raises the wall more. So the lion cannot be stopped or driven away but the wall  keeps on saving the man" Later in a bit irrigated tone to my statement – "Usually even the walls will not be useful against Dridha results, even if someone try constructing the wall, the lion will jump over the wall and eat the man for sure", Nirmal ji clarified further - "In case of Grah Phal Planets , even If the remedy is performed as suggested by some great person having its soul connected with God(it is not possible for the normal human to alter the result of Grah Phalplanet) , The man can be saved, but the lion may eat some other person probably the relative near to him which means that the effect  is transferred to other person(That is why Babar Hamayun story is referred. Father performed remedy for the sake of Son's life. Son saved but father died)" OK. I think that makes the basic picture regarding this from LK perspective I think. Any way in AIA perspective the technique for finding Dridha and Adridha results are entirely different. As per AIA – Any result indicated by the three such as Yoga, Dasa and Gochara together are termed Dridha Results. Any result indicated by either one or two among the three (such as Yoga, Dasa, Gochara) are called Adirdha results. Thus definitely the technique used to find Dridha and Adridha results differ here, but still the underlying concept seems to be the same – i.e. Dridha results cannot be normally altered is certain to happen, where as the Aridha results can be altered through remedies. In total here we see a partial compatibility between LK and AIA, though not total.   Point – 6  // 5)     Friends and Enemy Planets: The concept and table is almost similar to AIA. But even if natural enemy, planets in the same house are treated as friends. It is similar to the `temporary friendship' concept of AIA.// In AIA there is a concept of permanent friends and temporary friends – and the same can be considered in LK as well. Let us compare the LK and AIA view regarding both.     Permanent friendship-enmity: Sl Planet Friend Enemy Nutral/Medium 1 Sun (LK) Mo, Ma, Ju Ve, Sa, (Ra) Me, Ke   Sun  (AIA) Mo, Ma, Ju Ve, Sa, (Ra) Me, (Ke) 2 Moon (LK) Su, Me (Ke) Ma, Me, Ve, Sa, Ra   Moon (AIA) Su, Me (Ke) Ma, Ju, Ve, Sa, (Ra) 3 Mars (LK) Su, Mo, Ju Me, Ke Ve, Sa, (Ra)   Mars (AIA) Su, Mo, Ju Me, (Ke) Ve, Sa, (Ra) 4 Mercury (LK) Su, Ve, Ra Mo Ma, Ju, Sa, Ke   Mercury (AIA) Su, Ve, (Ra) Mo Ma, Ju, Sa, (Ke) 5 Jupiter (LK) Su, Mo, Ma Me, Ve Sa, Ra, Ke   Jupiter (AIA) Su, Mo, Ma Me, Ve Sa, (Ra, Ke) 6 Venus (LK) Me, Sa, Ke Su, Mo, Ra Ma, Ju   Venus (AIA) Me, Sa, (Ke) Su, Mo, (Ra) Ma, Ju 7 Saturn (LK) Me, Ve, Ra Su, Mo, Ma Ju, Ke   Saturn (AIA) Me, Ve, (Ra) Su, Mo, Ma Ju, (Ke) 8 Rahu (LK) Me, Sa, Ke Su, Ma, Ve Ju, Mo   Rahu (AIA) (Me, Sa, Ke) (Su, Ma, Ve) (Ju, Mo) 9 Ketu (LK) Ve, Ra Mo, Ma Me, Ju, Sa   Ketu (AIA) (Ve, Ra) (Mo, Ma) (Me, Ju, Sa) Every planet given in bracket in the above list depicts some amount of confusion regarding whether to include it there or not. As you could note there is a lot of confusion regarding where to include Rahu and Ketu in AIA, where in that amount the similar confusion cannot be found in LK, even though there too the same is present. As you could see both the lists are compatible and actually it is better to say that LK has resolved some of the confusions regarding Rahu and Ketu present in AIA! Good! LK list seems to be an improved version of AIA friendship-enmity list for planets! May be AIA followers should take lesson from LK on this! Thus LK and AIA has excellent compatibility here.   Temporary friendship-enmity: As per AIA, planets placed in 10-11-12-1-2-3-4 are considered as temporary friends. LK do not go for all these complexity, but simply treat any planet placed along with another planet simply as friends! This excellent expert short-cut approach of LK we will witness in many more scenarios.    As I become more and more familiar with LK, for me it seems like a simple and straight villager's approach to astrology. An expert villager who is not interested in complexities but in predicting, in deriving results, and nothing else! Whatever tools and shortcuts come handy he uses all of them! Possibly this is the very reason – 1)      LK drops all vargas and depends on Natal chart alone 2)      When it comes to temporary friendship-enmity of planets LK drops all complexity and treats planets in the same house, simply as friends. 3)      LK drops the whole concept of Signs and Nakshatras and uses only houses. 4)      Apart from astrology LK tries to utilize Hastarekha, Samudrika and Vastu wherever possible. 5)      LK tries go well in tune with the village culture and rituals, and utilizes the common mans idioms, phrases, ethics  and beliefs extensively.   Thus LK is a method that should be valued – because it is down to earth practical astrologers approach. Here we learn a new and very important lesson in our LK study – note it and remember it – we CANNOT expect to find complex rules in LK. If someone says that rules regarding something is complex is LK, that simply means that he is NOT understanding that section/portion of LK at all! LK cannot be complex, but only simple and straight! This realization could be very helpful to us while trying to understand the thought to be complex areas in LK for sure! Enough for the day. Love and regards, Sreenadh --- In ancient_indian_astrology@yahoogroups.com, "sreesog" <sreesog@...> wrote: Dear All,   Let me add one more mail to this Lalkitab review sequence.  Point -1 (a) Before moving into discussing planetary aspect etc I should mention some other basic concepts that are much relevant to LK system I think. I mean - AIA concept of Sun being king, Moon being Queen, Mars the commander, Mercury the Prince etc and a similar concepts in LK. Almost every indian knowledge branch while presenting the subject will have some mysterious story to tell which we wish or not becomes part of the foundation of that knowledge branch.  Examples could be – 1)      The story of the Demon falling from sky and the 108 devas finding place in his body in Vastu 2)      The concept of Kalapurusha and the above told story of Sun being king, Moon being queen etc in AIA 3)      The stories of Dhandwantari and Aswini Kumaras in Ayurveda Even ascribing the karakatwa of soul to Sun, Mind to Moon, Courage to Mars etc can be considered as part of such foundation stories. LK too has its own set of such foundation stories, most of which are in tune with the AIA approach as well. Let me list some of these foundation stories supported by rich imagery. 1)      1st-7th-8th -11th houses should be analyzed together. Because, planets in 1st house is the ruler (king), 7th house the minister, 8th house the people who are the eyes of the minister, and 11th house (the people who are) rulers foot (worshipers). Of course from AIA perspective also this is easy to understand since 1st house is the self, 7th house the partner, 6th and 8th the eyes of the partner (6th being the inside advice and 8th being the outside advice; 6th being the left eye and 8th being the right eye; 6th being the friends the self knows and 8th being the friends self usually don't know but closer to the partner), 11th house indicating the messenger, and naturally indicating the foot worshipers of the native since 11th house is the legs, and of ofcourse indicating public that spreads too much news since 7th to 12th houses are in visible half and 11th being indicative of ear. 2)      2nd -9th -4th houses should be analyzed together. Because, the monsoon that arises in the 9th house takes the laden clouds of fortune to the 2nd house where they rain down. Resultantly the crops grow in the 4th house. Ofcourse from AIA perspective also this is easy to understand, since 9th house is the father and teacher, 2nd house is the home where father and mother live together, and 4th house is the mother as well as the house and the properly around the house where the native grows especially during his childhood and teenage. If 9th (father) is not good, the home cannot be, and so would be the property and happiness (indicated by 4th house). LK lists out some other houses too that should be analyses together, either because all of them has some common subject connection as mentioned in the above two examples, or because of possibility of mutual aspect (such as 3rd and 9th; 2nd and 8th; 11th and 5th etc) or due to some other connections such as the trine connection etc. Let us remember that as per LK the planets placed in trine to each other are called `planets of foundation' or `mutually helping houses' – and some puts it as `they aspect each other/support each other' etc. There are several other AIA like concepts as well popular in LK, such as giving extra importance to 2nd house from every house. It is a well known principle in AIA that 2nd house from every house enriches that house. Talking on similar lines LK states that- "The planet that is posited in 2nd house becomes the planet of fortune or luck' (especially if there is a planet is the 10th house)". Note the special importance given to 2nd house in the above statement and also that the 10th house is, 9th house from 2nd house. The underlying principles in such statements could be - 1st house becomes lucky due to the planets in 9th house, 2nd house enriches 1st house, planets in 9th house from 2nd  – i.e. in 10th enriches 2nd house, ultimately worshiping great fortune on the 1st house – i.e. the native. In all such scenarios we notice that the underlying system is AIA itself, but what LK does is the expert adaptation of the same, an excellent shortcut, which often hides even the underlying core concepts. Love and regards, Sreenadh --- In ancient_indian_astrology@yahoogroups.com, "sreesog" <sreesog@...> wrote: Re: Lalkitab Review - 3 Dear All,   In the previous mail I said - "Lalkitab system is nothing but an expert shortcut system to AIA". Let me explain why I think so considering the listed points one by one. Point -1 //1)      The prime concept to know is that – in lalkitab system houses and signs are counted from lagna. i.e. Lagna is treated as Aries, 2nd house as Taurus, 3rd house as Gemini and so on, where ever the lagna be. //  In AIA while looking for a result we consider both Kalapurusha kundali and Natal Kundali - the results is verified by looking from Aries as well as lagna. For example to know whether there is any problem to the body at the time of birth, we check the signs starting from Aries considering Aries as head, Taurus as face and so on (The base quotes using being "Kalangani varangam anana muro....." from Brihat Jataka and "Kala narasyavayaval purushanam kalpayel presavakale..." from saravali). And also we check the houses starting from Lagna considering Lagna as head, 2nd house as face and so on. (The base quote being "Murtha Asya gala skandha...." found in Jaka Adesa Marga and many other texts). This technique of checking the horoscopes starting from Aries as well as Lagna is used extensively in AIA in almost every situation.  Thus in truth the Aries signify lagna and Lagna signify Aries.   Therefore LK system combines these two things into one saying that - the signs should be counted from Lagna. Thus Lagna is considered similar to Aries, 2nd house similar to Taurus, 3rd house similar to Gemini and so on. And this is how the signs gets dropped in LK, but still being used in another way! I would say that it is an excellent shortcut approach, worth studying.  (LK at any time does not seems to have given much importance to Nakshatras, so that is not considered here)   But this approach now brings in several difficulties and suitabilities which the AIA followers may or may not agree with. Let me list some of them below –  //                                             i.      Lagna would always be treated as the exaltation sign of Su, 2nd house as that of Moon, 7th as the exaltation house of Saturn, 4th house of Jupiter, 6th house of Mercury and so on. In short exaltation-debilitation etc are all relative to houses and not signs. (Signs are only less important in LK). This introduces some corollaries -                                                              ii.      Since Lagna means Aries (where ever the lagna be), Lagna is the exaltation sign of Sun, own house of Mars, debilitation house of Saturn etc.                                                             iii.      As evident from the above example the `Kalapurusha chart' concept similar to AIA is accepted, but as indicated earlier the head of the kalapurusha (and native) starts with the lagna with its feet in the 12th house. //    This brings in interesting situations like the following –    1) If Sun and Mars are placed in Lagna it is considered beneficial in LK since then Sun would be placed in its exaltation house, and Mars in its own house, if not they are malefic. (As told earlier there is no concept of natural malefic in LK, but instead two types of rules are given based on which we need to find whether a planet or combination is malefic or benefic - I will speak on this later). But as you know if not the Lagna is Aries this would be treated as a bad combination in AIA. Similarly Saturn in 7th is considered beneficial (if not malefic) since 7th is considered as the exaltation sign of Saturn. But as you know if not Lagna is Aries, this would be treated as bad combination in AIA. I think this would a good point to introduce the concept of own house, exaltation, debilitation, planet of luck, planet of planet result, and planet of sign result related to every house as per LK and to provide a comparison of that against AIA perspective. As per LK - House No Own house (Kalapurusha Chart) Exalted Planet Bhava Karaka (Pakka Khar) Planet of Luck Notes 1 Ma Su Su Ma - 2 Ve Mo Ju Mo - 3 Me Ra Ma Me Rahu is ascribed TWO exalted houses (3rd and 6th) as per LK 4 Mo Ju Mo Mo AIA considers Me also as significators for 4th house but LK don't 5 Su - Ju Su - 6 Me, Ke Me, Ra Ke Ra AIA considers Sa and Ma as significators for 6th house while LK considers Ke. 7 Ve Sa Ve, Me Ve AIA considers only Ve as significators for 7th house, while LK considers both Ve and Me 8 Ma - Ma, Sa Mo AIA considers only Sa as significators for 8th house, while LK considers both Sa and Ma. 9 Ju Ke Ju Ju AIA considers Ju, Su and Me as significators for 9th house, while LK considers only Ju 10 Sa Ma Sa Sa AIA considers Ju, Su, Me and Sa as the significators for 10th house, while LK considers only Sa 11 Sa - Ju Ju  - 12 Ju, Ra Ve, Ke Ra Ke AIA considers Sa as the significator for 12th house, while LK considers only Ra Note: Usually the `planet of luck' is a planet which has either the lordship or exaltation in that house.  But it is interesting to note that for 8th house, Moon which is actually debilitated in the 8th house of kalapurusha chart is considered as the planet of luck! Similarly for 11th house instead of considering Saturn which has the lordship of 11th house, Jupiter which is only a bhava karak for 11th house is treated as planet of luck! I wonder why is it so… Also note that Rahu and Ketu is also given own house, exaltation, debilitation etc in LK system.. Going back to the concept of Own house, exaltation, planet of luck etc even though it is well evident that the above LK concept is a short cut system to AIA, the points similar to the following can be debated – 1)      Considering Moon in 8th as good (especially for longevity), where as per AIA Moon in 8th is supposed to give big health problems. 2)      Sun and Mars in Lagna being considered as beneficial in LK, where as per AIA it is bad. 3)      Mercury and Ketu in 6th  - good as per LK and bad as per AIA 4)      Mars and Moon in 8th – good as per LK and bad as per AIA 5)      Jupiter and Rahu in 12th – good as per LK and bad as per AIA Other proofs for the facts that "LK is an expert shortcut system to AIA" I will discuss in the coming mails. Love and regards, Sreenadh n_astrology@yahoogroups.com, "sreesog" <sreesog@...> wrote: Re: Lalkitab Review - 2 Dear All, To review a system first one should know the system.  In this mail, I will try to introduce you to some of the important rules and concepts present in LK. 1)      The prime concept to know is that – in lalkitab system houses and signs are counted from lagna. i.e. Lagna is treated as Aries, 2nd house as Taurus, 3rd house as Gemini and so on, where ever the lagna be. This has got several side effects as follows -                                                                i.      Lagna would always be treated as the exaltation sign of Su, 2nd house as that of Moon, 7th as the exaltation house of Saturn, 4th house of Jupiter, 6th house of Mercury and so on. In short exaltation-debilitation etc are all relative to houses and not signs. (Signs are only less important in LK). This introduces some corollaries -                                                              ii.      Since Lagna means Aries (where ever the lagna be), Lagna is the exaltation sign of Sun, own house of Mars, debilitation house of Saturn etc.                                                             iii.      As evident from the above example the `Kalapurusha chart' concept similar to AIA is accepted, but as indicated earlier the head of the kalapurusha (and native) starts with the lagna with its feet in the 12th house. 2)      Planetary Aspect (Drishti) – Planetary aspect is the same as in AIA. But there is a clause. `Aspect will be felt only if aspected house is occupied by another planet'. For example if Sun is placed in 10th house from Saturn then it can be said that Sun is aspected by Saturn. But if 10th house is vacant, then it cannot be said that Saturn is aspecting 10th house. 3)      Some say that, as per Lalkitab planets change significance when they change house. For example Moon in 4th indicate mother, in 6th indicate maternal grand mother, in 8th indicate elder aunt, in 10th younger aunt etc. But may be instead of assuming that planet is changing significance as they change house, we can explain it better if we assume that the house signify such relatives and the results are getting visible through the planets situated there. 4)      The concept of Dridha and Adhridha results is present in lalkitab system as well. As accepted in AIA Dridha results cannot be modified or changed with remedies but Adridha results can.  But there is something special in deciding which are dridha and which are adridha results. Let me explain it a bit. As per LK every house is assigned one or more planets which indicate `planet of sign results' (rasiphal ka grah) and `planet of planet results' (grahaphal ka grah). It is said that `Planet of planet results' indicate dridha results and `planet of sign results' indicate adridha results.  The remedies are said to work only for adridha results, i.e. results indicated by `planet of sign results'. Or in other words – "those planets which are considered as of `grah phal' are of dridha results and no upaya can be done for those planets. Those planets which are considered of `rasi phal' in a house are of adhridha results and an upaya can be done for them". (The list of `planet of sign results' and `planet of planet results' related to every house would be given later)  5)      Friends and Enemy Planets: The concept and table is almost similar to AIA. But even if natural enemy, planets in the same house are treated as friends. It is similar to the `temporary friendship' concept of AIA. 6)      Beneficial and Maleficial planets:  LK does not consider any planet as inherently benefic or malefic. It says that every planet is capable of giving benefic or malefic results. (We should accept that this approach is logically correct and excellent) But this is introduces a new difficulty and complexity, and thus one of the most difficult areas in LK to master. Because there are numerous such rules are there which determine whether a planet is benefic or malefic in the given chart. "Such rules are too many. For each planet there are different rules, depending on which house the planet is and which other planets influence it. These rules are both for benefic and malefic results of that planet." So what makes a planet benefic or malefic as per LK? The answer would be – "The planetary placement and interrelationships of the planets. And most importantly, the jatak's way of life, habits, moral, attitude towards religion, relationships with other family members etc. e.g if some one insults his father, teacher or a purohit his jupiter will act as malefic even if it may be placed in the 4th house [exalted] and so on." (Yes, certainly this is an area to which we should come back and discuss in detail later) 7)      LK has its own Dasa system which is somewhat similar to the Yogini dasa system. 8)      LK has its own Year result (Varshaphal; based on transit/progression) system. (This point we will discuss in detail later) 9)      Graha karakatva: Similar to AIA, Lalkitab system also assign and associate significance (karakatva) with all planets. But there are some minor differences. 10)   Bhava karakatva: Similar to AIA, Lalkitab system also assign and associate significance (karakatva) with all houses. But there are some minor differences. 11)  Instead of the word `Bhava karak' (significator of house), LK uses the word `Pakka khar' (permanent house of planet). LK also introduces the new concept of associating one or more `planet of luck' (kismet jaganewala grah), `planet of sign results' (rasiphal ka grah), `planet of planet results' (grahaphal ka grah) with every house. 12)  Now there is a list of unique concepts such as – blind charts, half blind charts, virtuous planets (and charts), companion planets, competitive planets, established planet, warring planets of foundation, and dormant planet (and house). Let me explain all of these briefly                                                                i.      Blind planet: when one or more unfriendly planets are placed in the 10th house, it is called a horoscope of blind planets (Example: Sun in 10th)                                                              ii.      Half blind: A chart with Sun in 4th house and Saturn in 7th house is called a half blind chart.                                                             iii.      Virtuous planet: Any planet giving good results, even it be a malefic planet. (Eg: Ketu in 4th, any planet with Moon, Saturn in 11th etc). A chart with virtuous planet can be said as virtuous chart. It is somewhat similar to the Subha jataka or Suddha Jataka concept of AIA.                                                            iv.      Companion planets: Planets which exchange house – mutual exchange. Such planets are treated as friends.                                                              v.      Competitive planets: If one of two friendly planets is conjoined by an enemy planet, then it will spoil the friendship of the friendly planets and make them competitive, almost equal to enmity. (Eg. Venus in 7th and Mercury in 6th are friendly. If Sun get placed in 7th and thus spoils   Venus then this friendship will become competition, and so Me and Ve would be considered competitive planets in the above scenario)                                                            vi.      Established planet: A planet devoid of any time of malefic effect. For example a planet placed in its own sign unaspected by any other planet can is an established planet. Will give good results.                                                           vii.      Warring planets: Planets which are placed in 6-8 axis from each other. The planet in 6th put its ill effects on the planets in 8th from it (and not vice versa).                                                         viii.      The planets of foundation (mutually helping planets): Planets which are in 1-5-9 axis to each other.                                                            ix.      Dormant planets and house: If a planet does not aspect any other planet then it is called a dormant planet, and if a house is unaspected by any other planet (to receive the aspect as per LK a planet should be present in that house) then that house is called a dormant house.    Based on the analysis of the above factors we can say that Lalkitab system is nothing but an expert shortcut system to AIA. How and Why? That I will explain in the next mail considering each and every of the above concepts in detail.   Love and regads, Sreenadh --- In ancient_indian_astrology@yahoogroups.com, "sreesog" <sreesog@...> wrote: Dear All,    To review any system first one should understand that system.  A woman takes 10 months to deliver a baby. So to learn and review this system I should spend at least 10 day - because I am starting from a blank slate; i.e. I knew almost nothing about this system.    It might be bit surprising, but it is usually easy to approach a system and learn more in less time, if you are NOT a student of that system. A student progresses linearly through the path guided by the teacher, but the seeker/searcher/researcher takes jumps! Rather than trying to understand the system sequentially, he tries to find answers to the doubts that arise in him as and when he encounters new concepts; he is more guided by his inner quest and logic in the path he takes - than by the book and tradition.  My state when I tried to approach this system was also the same. Some questions I got, some answers too; some gaps I found, many merits too. Some doubts got cleared some still hang in mid air.  Lalkitab systems (here after LK) is different from most of the other off shoots of Oriental astrology due to many reasons.  Some of the readily visible factors about this system to the public are that  -  * Unlike the Sanskrit based other astro systems, Lalkitab is written in Urudu.  * LK gives much importance to Remedies some of which at times seems illogical.  It strongly argues that you can cure the ill effects caused by planets by doing x and y things.   * An aura of mystery is present around lalkitab not only because of its name which means "Red Book", but also because  of numerous other factors such as –     --- it is in Urudu which most of the hindi speakers are not much familiar with (the first hindi version of LK appeared only in 1952).     --- printed versions of this text was not available (hand written copies and photocopies of this book was getting circulated)     --- there was not one but many versions of the book getting circulated with the name lalkitab. (Pt. Rup chand Joshi published 5 books on lalkitab such as in 1939, 1940, 1941,1942 and finally in 1952; and in 1952 the hindi version of lalkitab came out with the name "Aruna samhita"; and numerous others wrote lalkitab related books with the very name 'lalkitab' itself. No wonder it caused much confusion)     ---  it does not follow the systematic approach found in other traditional astrological books but instead presents things as if some revelation     --- in none of the lalkitab versions the author was not mentioned (The 1939 version of the book mentioned the printer cum publishers name as "Giridhari lal Sharma" which many took as the name of the author then. Later only it came to light that Pt. Rup chandi Joshi is the real author of the book)    --- Unlike other astro-systems it spoke a unique terminology and language and mentioned a remedy for almost everything.    --- Even thought the text is in Urudu, LK mentions and speaks about the Hindu godes and not about gods of other cultures.      No wonder that people felt it bit mysterious.   Stories began to circulate about Lalkitab such as –   -- it is Arabic astrology [since it is in Urudu]   -- it is a book written by Aruna the coach driver of God Sun [based on the name given to 1952 hindi version of lal kitab as "Aruna samhita" which was nothing but an effort to do literal transilation of the word 'lal kitab' in to Sanskrit, where Aruna means 'lal' (red) and Samhita was used to refer to 'kitab' (book)] The story improved to say that, Ravana took away the book to Lanka, the book then reached Arebia and was translated into Arabic and Persian languages. And then into Urudu and thus came into existence 'lalkitab' alias 'aruna samhita' that is known to as today. Everything has a limit and every mystery should end once.  The same was the case with such mysteries and stories as well.  In modern times, in the seventies and after more and more people started learning LK system and good book about the same started to come out. Possibly one of the best among them is the book "Lal Kitab Astrology - Background and Exposition" by Pd. Krishan Ashant. But please note that the good authors on LK system is not limited to Krishan Ashant alone but many others too are there.   The researches by such scholars brought out many facts such as –   * Books on LK system were written by Pt. Rup Chand Joshi of Pharwala, Panjab.   * The story behind is that - a soldier from Himachal Pradesh (his name is unknown) working in Army as per the request of his officer presented his astro knowledge into some hand written books. The officer gave the copies to Pt.Rup Cahnd Joshi for review and study.  Later when Pt.Rup Chand Joshi went to his native village in Pharwala he took the books along with, studied it, and later started publishing books on the same.  He mentioned neither his name nor the name of the Javan who actually contributed this knowledge to him through that handwritten book anywhere.  Surprisingly those notes also never got published and none really knows whether such notes existed or existing or not.  However scholars like Krishan Ashant presents some witness accounts stating that some of the friends of Pt.Rup Cahnd Joshi actually saw those hand written notes.  (Anyway it is not clear what amount of info comes from those notes and what amount from Pt.Rup Chand Joshi himself - and possibly that would never be get revealed as well, since Pt. Rup Chand is no more and none seems have traced any clue in this direction till date.)    * It got clarified that LK is a unique and versatile system, an off shoot of Oriental astrology, as practiced in the hilly places of Himachal pradesh, Utteranchal and some parts of Kashmir.  (Anyway apart from this argument, not much info or proofs are available in this direction. No existing practitioner of the system, who follows this system without depending on the books of Pt. Rup Cahnd Joshi ever showed up.)   * The logic behind the remedies, the results to be told, the systematic approach to leaning all started coming into light.   And thus gradually improved the reputation of the lalkitab system, and more and more people started practicing it. It is advisable to the traditional indian astrologers who are trying to understand this system as well to first keep aside the confusing jungle of remedies and try to understand the conceptual core. Otherwise you would confused about the primarily petty looking jungle of remedies, which used by the local astrologers similar to ready reckoner without knowing the logic behind, making not only themselves but also the system itself a laughing stoke for the some what knowledgeable. The blame should go not to the LK system itself, but to the money minded astrologers who are not interested in learning this system systematically but only in making money.      Anyway, coming back to the history of astrology, thus it becomes clear that nothing much is known about the history of this system before AD. 1939 and it seems that even the  mystical history of this system is struck with this year or a few years before which Pt. Rup Chand was in army.  Thus the natural first quest that arises is to know at least a guess bit about the history and origin of this system before this period.  Let us start from the basic info about the system. The following points should be noted –   * LK does not speaks anything about which Ayanamsa to use. Astrologers use what they prefer. Now a days most of them are using Lahari Ayanamsa.   * LK does clarify much about the dasa system to use, even though it propose a 35 year dasa cycle, similar to the 36 year cycle of Yogini dasa followed in Himachal Pradesh region. None knows correctly how to use this dasa system and LK does not say much about it. Some use it similar to Nasargika dasa (e.g. Pt.Krishan Ashant), and some use it similar to the Yogini or Vimsottari dass system based on the position of Moon in Nakshatra (e.g. Pt. Bhooshan Priya). There are many other methods too which many suggest, but the truth remains that none is even sure where (in which planet) to start the dasa sequence.  (Thus it remains a controversial and un-clarified subject)   * LK proposes a Varsha phala table - but none is sure about the logic behind it or even whether it is based on solar return, lunar return or what ever.     * LK gives more importance to Houses than to signs, but it is not clear which house division system to use (equal or unequal; lagna at the beginning of the house or middle of the house etc). Similar to traditional indian astrology most of LK astrologers consider signs itself as houses, but even with my limited experiments  this does not seem to work.  Scholars like Pt. Bhooshan Priya considers lagna as the mid point of house and I think this is more logical and close to reality regarding the use of this system.  LK is totally silent on this matter. The point is if not a proper house reckoning system is selected, giving too much importance to house does not make sense; and if sign as houses rule is accepted then in many cases the results told by traditional astrology would be in direct conflict with the results told by LK system.  Considering all these Pt.Bhooshan Priya ji seems to be in right direction even though there are almost none who follows that style. Pt. Krishan Ashant too does not address this point in his book.    * The Planetary sequence followed by LK is unique. Unlike other sytems, in almost in every situation the sequence it refers to is : Ju-Su-Mo-Ve-Ma-Me-Sa-Ra-Ke       Does any of the above points give us any clue regarding the origin and history of this system? Even if they don't, I think they can.  I would like to present two major points -   1) If proper house division is essential for the results told by Lalkitab to become correct, then it means that this system came into existence AFTER the period of Sripati (1019-1066) of 11th century AD, who proposed a house system possibly for the first time in India where sign is not equal to the house. (In traditional Indian Astrology before the period of Sripati, Sign = House, without exception).   2) The Planetary sequence followed by an astrological system is usually a good pointer towards its place of origin. For example – Sl Planetary Sequence Place of origin 1 Su-Mo-Ju-Ve-Me-Sa-Ma Uruk, Babylonia, Parthian, Selucid 2 Mo-Su-Ju-Ve-Sa-Me-Ma Chaldean (Neo-babylonian) 3 Su-Mo-Ma-Me-Ju-Ve-Sa Indian 4 Su-Mo-Sa-Ju-Ma-Ve-Me Greek And now we are stuck with this new sequence proposed by LK. That is – Ju-Su-Mo-Ve-Ma-Me-Sa-Ra-Ke Unlike the above seqences which starts with Sun or Moon the LK sequence starts with Jupiter! Is that a mistake? If we, re-arrange and put Ju at the end then too the sequence stand out as unique, not only because it includes Rahu and Ketu as well but also because the sequence does not have much of a similarity with none of the above sequences! Thus it seems that LK system has an identity of its own, and possibly an astronomical and  astrological tradition of its own which can be traced possibly to the ancient kingdoms in the hilly regions of himalaya itself or may be (it is just a wild guess) to some countries and cultures that existed just beyond himalaya like the Kamboja kingdom or so. As of now I am unable to prove anything about its place or origin based on the planetary sequence followed by LK, but definitely it could be a worthy clue if clubbed with further evidences.   I am still trying to learn and understand this system. In the coming days I will share more of my thoughts about this system so that we can proceed to a comparison and conclusion regarding its compatibility with AIA. Enough for the day.  Love and regards, Sreenadh

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